Vielen Dank fürs Downloaden oder Streamen, wo immer ihr seid. Gleich geht’s los mit Folge 134 vom 27. August 2019
Falls ihr euch über die Nummer wundert. Das ist die interne Zählung unseres Podcasthosters, die wir ab jetzt einfach für unseren Podcast übernehmen.
Diese Folge ist eine Interviewfolge, mit Hans und Mikael Colville-Anderson, einem der einflussreichsten Fürsprecher des Radfahrens in der Stadt. Mir ist gerade keine andere Bezeichnung eingefallen.
Ab 2006 hat er in seinem Blog [Copenhagenize] Fotos von Menschen veröffentlicht, die in ihrer Alltagskleidung Fahrrad fahren, vor allem in Copenhagen. Frauen im Kostüm auf dem Weg zur Arbeit, Männer im dicken Wintermantel mit den Kindern im Lastenrad. Später hat er eine Agentur für Stadtplanung gegründet, die [Copenhagenize Design Co], und Städte auf der ganzen Welt dabei beraten, wie sie für die Menschen und nicht fürs Auto planen können – oder so ähnlich. Letztes Jahr hat er sich dort verabschiedet, um sich auf andere Projekte zu konzentrieren.
Was er gerade macht, was er von E-Bikes und E-Scootern hält, warum Städte für Menschen vor allem Städte ohne Autos sind und warum Nicht-Fliegen keine Lösung für das Klimaproblem ist, das erzählt er mir in unserem Interview, das wir bei der Radkomm in Köln geführt haben.
Es ist unser drittes Interview, wobei sich Mikael an die ersten zwei nicht erinnern kann. Das liegt daran, wenn man mit so vielen Menschen spricht.
Bewertet Fahrradio und schickt uns Nachrichten
Noch kurz eine Bitte: Wenn ihr diesen Podcast gut findet, dann bewertet uns mit 5 Sternen bei Apple Podcasts oder iTunes. So werden wir besser gefunden.
Hans Dorsch: Mikael Colville-Andersen I – Radkomm -190601-155346.WAV
03:54] The last time we met you were very, can I say you you didn't like ebike. What's your. How do you think about them now today.
04:09] Oh the same. I mean it's funny when you you get labelled on the Internet you know oh he's the he hates ebike. You said it differently but like you know I'm just ebike sceptic like I have an article called „The ebike sceptic” where I explain all of this stuff rationally. Let's just be rational that's all I want is a rational intelligent conversation and not the hype of the ebike industry. That that should not dominate like the hype of the car industry should not dominate transport conversations in cities either. Thanks. So I just think we should still be rational. And even after all these years you know we still see everything I said like three or four years ago in my article. It's still the case like there's accidents are increasing you know record high number of killed cyclists in the Netherlands. Right. Incredibly safe in the Netherlands but now they've had more people killed on bikes than in cars since ebike doing it. Right. And I can't remember if I wrote the article but it's when I met you last time or not. OK.
05:18] I add things to it once in a while. But it's it's still the same conversation. I mean ebike they're there you know. But they should not dominate the conversation. They should be like for you know the 5 or 10 percent of the population who need them. Maybe some disabled people maybe some elderly or you know maybe somebody who has to go far but they don't work in cities because they go too fast. You know the average speed in Copenhagen in Amsterdam is 16 kilometres per hour and ebike ebike 25. It's like that it messes with the flow and it messes with safety. So I'm still sceptical and I think like I know also you know I'm I'm old enough to know like yeah it's a hype and then rationality starts to kick in when the city of Groningen in the islands they're literally they're building separate ebike lanes so regular bikes normal bikes and ebike are already there physically separating them because they're having too many accident problems so a lot of cities under way. We have to do that. Oh ok let's let's maybe not talk about it. You know subsidizing ebike so I think I think rationality is coming back to the conversation but I'm still I I have the same opinion. OK.
06:30] [00:06:30]Next thing scooters. [1.0s]
06:32] Yeah. 2018 everywhere I spoke in Europe. While even in North America was a question about scooters and one of those colours everywhere I went. My God. Yeah. And back then I'm going. I don't know yet. I don't like them. But let's see when the data comes in. Right. And then now we're seeing the data come in. Oh it's not good. You know. You know what five people killed and 280 seriously injured in France last year. Like the French are going whoa hang on that's all. That's a big number. I was just in Paris like two days ago. It's like they're everywhere because they're bike share system has failed. They haven't delivered the 20000 new bikes so people needed to get around. And so yeah they just came in Denmark in January legally on the bicycle infrastructure. Everybody was against it except for the one right wing politicians who who said I don't care. He didn't listen to anybody's advice. And what's interesting in Copenhagen is you have so many bikes and we have a flow. We have a system that works. So these people are messing with our system. So there's pushback already. It's really interesting. I was in. Oh so so hilarious morning rush hour. She got like 50 cyclists at that light. And a young guy 20 something a little bit chubby. You sort of went up all wrong the side to get up to the front and as you got to the front he just bumped a guy. Not hard he just like elbows bumped and this guy. He's like 35 or something. And he looks and he just snapped. He was having a bad day and he went: „tell your mother to buy you a fucking bicycle, gee fuck you man.” And 30 people were just like laughing our heads off. And then this poor kid didn't you know let me whatever. That's that's how we're reacting to them. Well you have other cities where there's not a lot of bikes. Like in Spain or whatever. You know people are going Oh God they're irritating but the accident rates are coming in. And I think the rationality will return to the conversation people will discover oh my god I almost died. I'm going to walk again or get a bike. I think that's going to happen. It's kind of like Darwin. Darwinian theory right. But I was interviewed in a Danish newspaper, one of our national papers. The journalists did a big long article about you about these e scooters and interviewed me about what I thought and how I speak so he knew he was going to get some good quotes.
09:06] But where is it. I'll. Show you. It's my favourite headline ever. Of all the interviews I do I got to frame it. So it says that's my quote and it filled half the page of the newspaper. [00:09:24]„We have designed a safe bicycle city and now we're fucking with it.” [3.9s] It's like you know. Right there. But that's that's what we're doing. Like where we actually have designed something very very beautiful and you know if you have a good design you don't mess up with the design. You keep your design right. So I'm not a fan. It's only young people using it. I really look at who's using it it's like it's lazy pedestrians. Lazy young people in their 20s using it. It's nobody else.
09:51] But if you have a city that hasn't been designed yet, don't just think there may be a chance to achieve like a critical mass of movement without cars by whatever.
10:14] But like motorists are not leaping out of their cars and onto e bikes in any really decent number that makes me think differently and motorists are not hopping on a scooters. It is lazy young people who are lazy pedestrians who oh they do this in the San Francisco and Silicon Valley I want to be part of the trend right. It's not you know, a car free a car light city I prefer that phrase is the goal. Absolutely. But you know like I said on the stage like [00:10:44]„what is a good street? It's a street where people get healthy using it and they don't die." [5.0s] They get healthy using it right. And they end and they're safe. Are we safe with like electric scooters flying through our cities with these small wheels on a cobblestone city like curling or mini. No, it's a gimmick man and it'll disappear. I am really convinced of that like I see but the the hype of ebike is falling they'll still be there. They're not going to disappear but you know I think the scooters are it'll be like 2018, 2019. Let's see what happens next year. I think there'll be a lot fewer of them because like a lot of cities are getting tired of them because it's not just mobility it's also they're a pedestrian hazard man in Paris just two days ago. They're everywhere there's like 11 operators and they're in the middle of the sidewalk. And old people you got, wheelchair users. I mean people are going to figure out really quick that it's not a great idea.
11:39] So do you think the companies that put scooters on the streets now are they. They are. As soon as I spoke to them they are are already like having newer models larger wheels, wider Wheels, more sturdy so they don't die after 30 days. Do you think they they might like adapt and bring bicycles, ebikes or whatever. And just because they are their goal is moving people and having them pay for it. [00:12:22]Do you think they they might just use that as a kind of a Trojan horse to get into the city. [6.6s]
12:30] [00:12:30]Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with venture capital companies paying us to move around our city. Is that really. Maybe that's a whole ethical issue that we really are not discussing very often. [11.4s] I buy a bike. I pay for repairs. I don't have to pay anybody anything. I am paying somebody in Silicon Valley to move through a European city right. Or even if I was American living in New York I mean I'm paying somebody to move and that's just like What the fuck with that like you know and that is that the future like you know they're gonna start charging me to walk in my city. You know you have to pay for sidewalks now or you know „this sidewalk is sponsored by Google”. So you have to you know on your phone is like thing. They take like one cent of you know where we going with this, right. I shouldn't have to pay to use my city I should just be able to use it as I see fit and not pay anybody walk ride a bike, boom. You know that's the beauty of bikes is that you know with an ebike you know you're taking lithium from Bolivia you're taking like batteries from China like this whole global kind of you know economic thing. You know I don't really maybe I shouldn't have to do that. All right. I buy a bike. I don't pay anybody I paid whatever brand of bike that is a Danish bike that's a company that makes a money. boom, they can make more bikes here I'm paying like you know I'm suckin lithium out of. Bolivia has like 85 percent of the world's lithium resource. Bolivia. I think it's Bolivia, whatever. You know there's a whole ethical issue: Should I pay to move around my city. No. All right. And we shouldn't make it such a trend that people don't actually think about that. Oh yeah. I mean we get a scooter. OK. Who's getting that money. It's not your city. It's not you know a lot of these operators don't even pay to use the city right. The city just lets them in and nobody benefits. It's only a hazard. It's only reduced health benefits because they're not walking anymore. It's against this kind of like you know other people get the money and your life is your personal life is worse because of it. And we should be contributing positively to our cities right. [00:14:37]We should be actively becoming healthy and we know how to do that right. We have other ways of doing that walking and cycling. [6.9s] For example right now if very thought about that. I get what I'm paying. [00:14:48]People are paying to use their own city [2.3s] and they're paying somebody where the city you know they don't even benefit.
14:55] [00:14:55]There is there's one another in Cologne and in the Netherlands and in Germany that's one company that's quite active called Swapfiets, [14.8s] do you know them?Maybe you saw some bikes in Cologne. They have blue tie us in front and they're very popular with students because it's like like lending a bike. So you get to keep it for yourself. It's a it's a very unique. Yeah. You lease it it's costs for students it's about 17 euro I think per month. And if it's broke they fix it. If it gets stolen you pay a little fee and you get a new one. What do you think is this that a good way to to bring a bicycle to people.
15:57] Yeah. It's just a bike share system. That's all that is and that's in fifteen hundred cities is a different version. They've had that in Straßbourg in France for years. Like most of the bikes you see in Straßbourg, which is a very good bicycle city 25 percent 30 percent. There are so many of them and you can take it like on a short trip or you can lease it for a month or six months of your student. Yeah. So fine. That's fine. I mean that's just bike share you know in a different format. You know the Dutch have their OV fiets. We know where you get a bike in the train station. You know to a bike share as opposed to be nobody else can do that because the Dutch have such a densely populated country with so many it's such a big train network and lots of train stations so that's not even a transferable model even to Denmark. In Denmark we design our trains to take bikes onboard. The Dutch don't want bikes onboard because they have so many people moving on trains so different it's transferable and not transferable. But that idea. Swapfiets, yeah.
16:53] Yeah it's just yeah it's convenient. It's it's in that way. It's it's modern probably maybe. I think they even got dealers on board that like Fix the bikes. Yeah.
17:10] Well back to one thing you say like you know Lyft Uber Lyft now they're going into bike share. I think Uber is too, you know, with jump. They're big in Paris now. you know ebike played or pedal to pedelecs or whatever they're called. Yeah. Yeah of course they got venture capitalist money that they have to you know they got to keep profiting so of course they're going to. I don't really believe that they all really want to make the world a better place. They just want to make money. I don't really buy into that. I'm a little bit old school maybe that in that way. But you know [00:17:40]Uber and Lyft said we're going to remove cars from the city. That's what we're going to do right. And make money all the data now indicates that there are more cars in cities after Uber and Lyft when they move in. All the data shows that there's actually an increase in traffic. [14.3s] Right. So I mean you know we got everything these venture capitalists people and their companies do you know come on is big money behind it. You've got to you've got to question the ethics of it right from the beginning.
18:05] Well in there in this prospectus, they published for the when they went public they wrote that the Uber cars many of the rides are under three miles, about 50 percent or so, and Uber drivers hate those drives because they don't they don't earn money they have to ride there, they have to ride back and well apparently they speculate on replacing those those rides with bikes and scooters what they [00:18:47]they call it new mobility. [2.2s]
18:49] [00:18:49]Meaning people are making money off of you getting around here a city that's a good one. [4.3s] No that's a new mobility. It's like citizens paying to do what they did for seven thousand years.
19:01] Well, a thing that if you if you listen to them and they are they're quite euphoric they they tell you that 20 years of bike advocacy is sort of wasted because by bringing such a mass of new mobility into the cities the cities are forced to adapt, forced to build infrastructure and they also say that say Uber will pay for infrastructure or pay for parking and things like that. So what do you think of that.
19:42] Show me where they're paying for it and what kind of infrastructure they designed for a common. You know I mean like what are they going to build. I mean what we know now is we need a a bike infrastructure right to move a lot of people. Oh now we're going to separate ebike and then we're gonna maybe need scooters and he bikes together like you know where are we going to. It's hard enough to find space for intelligently designed bicycle infrastructure that's 100 years old and now we've got to start adding new lanes. So yeah if that eats into the cars fine.
20:09] But I mean [00:20:09]we still have to separate motors from non motors [3.1s] and you know and what we see too many cities is, they allow the scooters and the ebike on the regular bicycle infrastructure and we're only seeing that that is causing a lot of traffic safety problems. So yeah. Let me see it you know. Let me see what they're where they're gonna build it. You know and what they're going to do I think if you think about [00:20:33]a city's responsibility is public health on the right we have the bicycle it's a magical pill for solving so many problems right. [7.4s] And what is an escooter. It's somebody getting lazier and you know not fulfilling their responsibility as a citizen to take care of their health. Right. So [00:20:50]we're enabling people to be lazier and I don't think that that is should be a goal for any city. [4.9s] So let's see what they build and where they build it and what they do. Before I get irritated with them.
21:02] So you're you're not with you're not working with Copenhagen. I Copenhagen guys anymore. Are you like a like a freelance. What's your what's your job now. Are you are you working. But you're still working with cities.
21:29] Not really. I stopped in February because I'd been staring at bikes for 10 years and I needed to start. I have so many other ideas that I needed to start working on. I'm not doing anything [00:21:44]I have a TV series that takes up a lot of my time right. The life sized city and I do a lot of keynotes. [4.1s] That's what I do at the moment and then I'm waiting and waiting for one big project with a city or a developer I'm talking to some developers who really want to modernize their new development where nothing is built yet where I can go in early and help them plan the development based on desire lines based on you know original urban planning people you know making the desire lines in the street or whatever. So I'm waiting for like a. Been.
00:22:33: Was it blinking.
00:22:43: I'm afraid it didn't work before.
00:22:48: Why we have we have power. No but I mean the fear of God. You know I'm trying to find I'm not going to be like consulting with the whole city.
00:22:48: 23:02] I mean I will look for one really big visionary project that like the world has never seen. That's what I want to do now and I'm working on it. I can't tell you any more than that. But for now I did the TV series in and in my keynotes and meeting people like here and it's amazing. So I like it.
00:22:48: 23:19] So this TV series is it's not available somewhere to stream in Canada or we have a VPN you can go anywhere right. But so no it's it's a Canadian broadcaster and then it's being sold to other countries so. It's in 13 countries now and it's coming on service. The Austrian the Red Bull channel in the beginning of July. And I think their broadcasts into the German language countries from Servus in Austria. I'm waiting to hear exactly what I think that's what they said. So it should be available for streaming on their Web site. I'll probably be doubled because that's what you do in Germany but in Austria. But yeah. It's like it's it's amazing to see what is happening around the world. You know citizens rising up and saying enough is enough. Boom. Let's change the urban landscape. Let's show the politicians what we want instead of just doing what they tell us to do. So it's really a fascinating age.
00:22:48: 24:24] How many how many films to do or how many you believe. What's it called. The episodes are there.
00:22:48: 24:33] We're filming Season 3 now. So there's two seasons. So 12 episodes and now we're starting. We're already in the middle of three season three.
00:24:43: [00:24:43]So I just go to cities all over the world and try and find what makes them life sized. It's really hard to translate the title. [5.7s] It's an awesome title in English but like in the French the French television called it cities at the height of men. And in Italy it's stories from the city of the future and finish its „people cities”. So whatever. But you know it's really showing the world. I want the people watching to going. Why don't I do that in my neighbourhood. Honey let's do this. Let's go take a let's take back the street and make some safe areas for our kids to play or whatever. So I'm curating me amazing stories and hopefully enabling other people to also do the same.
00:24:43: 25:21] I saw you doing a podcast as well.
00:25:25: Oh god, yeah. I love it. I love it. I just I have no time to edit. I have all of this. I have so many.
00:25:25: 26:49] [00:26:49]I mean I travel all the time and in my network there are amazing people and with strong voices and important projects and vision. [9.2s]
00:26:58: So I'm meeting them anyway and I'm talking to them. So why not just record the conversations was the basic idea. The problem is I have like. 10 episodes recorded and I have no time to edit. I come from the film industry so I can edit video like that. But audio. Oh my God. I don't have the patience for it. I really have to. You know it's been an audio journey like a radio journalist. I just discovered. OK. That's not really my style. I need to see the images. So I'm trying to talk to somebody in the States who has a podcast production company about how maybe they can take the material and produce it. So I have four episodes but it's all about urbanism it's all these people who are. Thinking differently or doing amazing projects so it's kind of an extension of the TV show. I'm curating all of these voices.
00:26:58: 27:47] Actually I haven't I haven't heard into them. But I saw one on these very short because I only discovered it yesterday. Right. And. There's one episode about skating building for skating and actually I know skaters in city planning so they they infiltrate the the city I haven't listened to your episode yet but in Stuttgart for example there's one guy and he whenever they they build something he secretly slips in skater parts.
00:26:58: 28:31] Well that episode I did skateboard urbanism it's because [00:28:35]Malmo in Sweden. It's the only city in the world with an official skateboard consultant. He works for the city and he's an old skater. [7.8s] He's like maybe I don't know late 40s or something or know how old is it just looks like a surfer dude from California the Swedish guy but man talking to him it's not just like skating it's cool man let's skate everywhere you yo it's if he's Swedish so they have you know it's pretty cool. He'd say No no. You know. These kids you know they don't play team sports. They're not good at football they don't you know. So they want to skate and they find a voice they find a way to express themselves through skateboarding. And so we have to design the city for them otherwise they go off and do bad stuff. Right. Because they don't feel like they're a part of the city. [00:29:21]So if you did redesign a square in Malmo as an architect. Here we are. Here's the plan. OK that's cool. But go talk to Gustaf. [7.4s] And Gustaf says he can't skate that that's crap. You have wood on your benches. To skate you need an edge you need you know granite or concrete and you go back and redesign it better or you know some places they don't want to be able to skate because there's too many. [00:29:45]So they actually tactically design the city for inclusions [3.0s] . They don't use skate stoppers or call a. I learned in episode no no no. Some places they will use bad design. Not bad design, like they'll have wooden benches with the edges like the table here and skaters will look at that go. I can't grind along that edge so I'm not going to do that. [00:30:12]So they actually use design to you know influence their behaviour but then they give them an awesome spot over there where it's all the surface is perfect for skating. [9.8s] And even the space in this guy is talking about like the space between those tiles,. It has to be you know zero point five zero point zero five whatever. All they have all he has all the data about how to design skate friendly spots. So over there they're going to make it awesome here. a lot of people maybe sit here and see a little design it so that skaters won't skate here. So it's just so fascinating and he talks about how.
00:26:58: 30:47] You know [00:30:47]Malmo is leading the world in also gender inclusion how to get more girls to skate because it's really a male dominated culture. [6.2s] And so they're really actively you know and they have a big male skate competition every year is pretty world famous. So they are the first place they said girls and boys compete together. It's just skateboarding. It's not 100 meter run where the man is going to win because physically men are stronger. No. Girls and boys can compete. You know they're not like the girls final at 10:00 in the morning but in the boys final at 5:00 it's like everybody go together. Equal pay equal prise money and everything. So yeah it's really cool. Episodes it's like that's where I want to do with the all guess is like who the Who's talking about that. I'm not a skater right. I see skaters in my city and I think that's cool. But so wait there's people actually designing cities for skateboarding. And why doesn't every city do that instead of only putting up skate stoppers everywhere.
00:26:58: 31:34] Do you mind if I talk to him. No no no. Fine. I got to like copy your episode. No that's fine. Yeah sure. Yes. Speaking of people in the city and apparently our mayor, I reckon your German isn't good that you understood her numbers herself. She she said that.
00:26:58: 32:03] [00:32:03]She said that life in Cologne happens in the city in the streets. But I wouldn't subscribe to that. [9.7s] I think life doesn't work. Cologne is better than Stuttgart. But but I think that the car has moved people from the street. I think that's more what you said, as well.
00:26:58: 32:29] [00:32:29]Yeah. This is not. This isn't a people friendly city. My God life goes on the way it goes on the edge of the street where we're trying to survive walking to the supermarket that's where life happens in this city. [10.7s] God. Man this is a city where the planners worship at the altar of the automobile and everybody else is in irritation. You can see the way it is the way they design for pedestrians and bikes. These people can you know. We have to we have to make space for them now it's like we're just like a little irritating mosquito and you know we have to do something for them. That's what the city is. It's a car centric city and she was also saying we've only been doing this for one year. So it's early. I'm going you have like 18 percent of your population on bikes. How many people take trains. How many people walk. Everybody walks at some point in the day. That's been going on for since the 1960s. [00:33:24]So. I don't buy her. I like her she's a nice lady. And it was cool that she was in the room today like I never see that. [5.6s] But man that's bullshit one year. I mean come on. Yeah they did one painted Lane on Venloer Straße, that's like the stupidest infrastructure man.
00:26:58: 33:41] This is dangerous isn't it.
00:33:43: [00:33:43]Yeah I was in there yesterday it's like stupid it's dangerous and stupid. [3.0s] We had photos. This is like I was also tweeting like Jesus Christ like your money went to that. Your taxpayer money man you're working hard and paying the city your money and that's what they give you or you should be insulted.
00:33:43: 34:02] So if so is there. Does it make sense to to show people how life without cars would be like or do we have to protest and get politicians to help.
00:33:43: 34:24] Yeah. Yes to both of those I mean you we don't talk about it anymore. You know. [00:34:30]We don't invite when we're making anti-smoking legislation to make smoking more difficult inside or in public spaces. We don't invite the smokers to the table and say hey what do you think about this we say fuck you. [9.8s] Boom we do it right. We. We have the big stick and not the carrot and that's what we need to do with cars. Motorists. [00:34:48]Driving in cities is the new smoking [1.2s] right. We don't talk to motorists about how we're going to modernize our transport and improve life in cities. They've got to fucking figure that out themselves. That's not you know you take you just it's a transport dictatorship for 70 years in our cities in Europe since the 50s you know in dictatorships never change by conversation. Somebody loses their head and that's what we need to do. Metaphorically chop off people's heads metaphorically. Heads have to roll. And and we need a revolution man. So yes. Protesting in Germany has got a great framework. You know you have these the possibility to do your Fahrradentscheid and know inside you know like the referendums and you have the you know what we see in Germany is like people are suing the cities for not living up to the EU demands for pollution levels. I mean that's awesome.
00:33:43: 35:43] Of that. That was the guy who spoke in the morning.
00:33:43: 35:46] And I mean we can't do that in Denmark. We can't sue anybody. That's a very uniquely German thing which is so irritating because it's so awesome to have that. Possibility so. [00:35:57]Yeah it's it's it's in your face protesting. That's hard because it's not the 70s you know get a hundred thousand people out on the streets like you could in the 70s for basically anything. [8.4s] All right yeah. It is a protest. I*m in. Let's go. You know and so we need to do something different we need to use other more modern communication tools you know use it a bit more humour or whatever it is it's it's still tricky. But yeah it's like the activists I see around the world are so amazing like Riga of all places they are just world class activists who will just paint bike lanes all the time. In Toronto. They did this in the early 2000s it was like these keep sneaking out at night painting bike lanes in the cities going „oh, for God sakes” they go out and remove them. „We have no space for bikes they say in Riga” and the activists are going „we just painted the bike lane and everybody's using it and there's still space for the bus in the car like we just showed you. You have space.” No no no. They just keep going keep going. It's so awesome. So that kind of activism you know standing at a protest waving a flag that doesn't work.
00:37:00: [00:37:00]Modern activism tactical activism changing the physical street and people go, hm It's [3.5s] so funny and regal when people wake up in the morning driving to work and on a bike laying there and they actually stay out of the way. I mean like they go. [00:37:11]The city must have done that and that kind of activism is that bears more fruit than just chanting at a demonstration on a square. That's 70s shit. [10.8s] I loved it. I mean I wish we could do that just in the modern society. We can't. I support your cause. Like on Facebook you know. And that's. We need to think differently about how to do it. So yeah physical protest. Engaging the citizen saying you know what your neighbourhood could be better. You know your kids are breathing this air. MAN No. No way. Yeah. Let's get. What can we do. You know let's plant urban g ardens illegally let's take away car parking spots and put in picnic tables and the city will come and remove it. Whatever you're making a point.
00:37:00: 37:51] [00:37:51]Were you ever to Vitoria in Spain. [3.4s] It's in Basque. And they are a pedestrian city. Yeah. And they found another. Yeah. And they actually know dude. Sorry. Reasoning why Why no. No. Well recently had a double espresso. Super weird but that's what they need right now. And I was invited there because they they they had they built in a relatively short timespan. They build loads of bike lanes and a new new tram line. And they said: [00:38:51]„This needs a strong mayor. And if you have a mayor that wants this change and supports this change you can do it. [14.3s] And what they did they they did. They said they weren't too transparent so they didn't speak to journalists very much for example. So if they had plans they they didn't invite everybody and shared the plans and spoke about them. They they kept them for themselves. Because you said as well that the people don't like the change. And this is what they didn't want to. So they have. They used the super blocks theme for example. And so that has kept it for themselves. And like came out with their plans and told that to the citizens then and they like it.
00:37:00: 39:49] That's it. Everywhere like you know I talk to everybody everywhere like I have like five different dialects but I speak the same language. I talk to the activists. So yeah Fuck cars, high five. Yeah. And I talked to the planners in my work I have to speak differently to them engineers Oh my God I'm talking to your grandpa talking to engineers. And then when I talk to politicians you know I have a different. I know what to say to them. I give them business model: make money be famous, you know green city tourism. But [00:40:24]if I look at all the cities around the world that are have have transformed positively in a short amount of time. It is all top down. It's really depressing because I know so many activists who do good work but you can push up up up but it's still only going to happen if that politician goes. I get it. I went to Copenhagen. I understand. Let's go [21.9s] or in some cities it's been like the head of transport who convinces the mayor or whatever. Right but somebody high up in this in the in the hierarchy. Oh I get it now and boom then U.S. change. It's really kind of frustrating that it still is that politician. Luckily there are more and more right.
00:37:00: 41:08] What do you see around the world in Vancouver. Oh my God. Amazing mayor really turning the pyramid on its head. All the transport money went to the car if you imagine an upside down pyramid car. All some money left. We have they have a lot of public transport trains were and then bought and bikes and walking. He went now we'll just turn that on its head or roll like reverse the order. Pedestrians firs,t bikes, public transport. If we got money left on my do some car shit. I don't know. You know like it's whatever is left will be for the cars. Mexico City Buenos Aries, Seville. Not so much Dublin anymore, but Dublin in the 2008 2009, Paris.
00:37:00: 41:51] Well things can change easily in Barcelona. There's the it's the.
00:42:00: You sure.
00:42:00: 42:02] Apparently they there have to be quick to to build their super blocks because the elections coming up.
00:42:00: 42:16] You mentioned super blocks Vitoria-Gasteis where they kind of did it without being too transparent.
00:42:27: Really the first city that started anything in this conversation was in the 70s. It was called a tea bar in Curitiba, in Portuguese and it was a dictatorship. [00:42:41]Man, Give me a dictatorship just for like a year we could transform and the we'll put it back to democracy [4.8s] right in and there was just a head of traffic. He's gone without congestion problems public transport. So he was the guy who sort of invented the bus rapid transit you know making bus lines dedicated and he didn't like you know almost in a weekend. But it was a dictatorship so nobody could complain right. You didn't stick your head too far out the window. You know as a metaphor you got bus lane. But there was a super big success bike lanes a few you know nice neighbourhoods and effective transport in the form of BRT that went fast and nobody can complain. Awesome. But that still was top down right. And. You I was at a conference speaking to speaking with the guy who is in charge of the transformation of Seville to a bicycle friendly city and a mayor of the borough of the plateau in Montreal. Hundred thousand people not the whole Montreal, but just one big part of it. And they've done visionary stuff and somebody in the audience and how do you do it. Like my God and the one guy says you just do it. And the mayor „you just do it fast and you leave something green behind” and everybody laugh but it's true. Bike lanes, fuck bike lanes. Oh but wait the grass is nice and there is a new tree and wait they took a parking spot but oh wait. Now there's a bench with with you know foliage huh. And then you know so it's not just bikes you've got to do the big picture with it. [00:44:10]So you're gonna sneak bikes into the the greening of the city or the traffic calming of the city right. [4.8s] But still it's always top down. But the momentum is changing.
00:42:27: 44:21] You know like America was really late to this conversation. You know that's Europe and Europe and then now American cities are really and many of them are accelerating fast with putting in Dutch style intersections or shared space streets or you know Copenhagen style infrastructure. I mean it's like once America does something good it does it well. Also when they do bad things they do it very fast and very well. So yeah.
00:42:27: 44:48] So really I mean you know the mayor of Cologne here living in this region where she's surrounded by mayors just like her you know. Yeah. Her source of inspiration doesn't extend very far. And she says „oh Dusseldorf you know Stuttgart, they're all doing the same thing. I don't have to do anything. But if you're in another city, like in Spain there was like a wildfire through Spain eight years ago nine years ago. They all had left governments come in and they all went boom everything. Bikes everywhere in Spain was amazing so it is that you know momentum and [00:45:23]Cologne you know and Stuttgart and Dusseldorf you know they kind of feel they're big cities so they feel like they're global cities in a way but the globe is the how doing different stuff. [10.2s] And like I always say it's getting awkward. It's really getting really uncomfortable. If your city is not doing anything.
00:42:27: 45:40] [00:45:40]Like Venloer Straße, that is the main routes for cycling into the city. Twenty seven percent of all the traffic on that street leading to the city in the morning is bikes. Why is that not a like a flat plaza or just a bike. Bike street like just only bikes and pedestrians. Maybe a bus if you need have buses there. I don't know why. You know that would be legendary if they if that would really. Once you do one thing you can do you know you can. The second time is easier. [31.4s] The citizens will be like „Ah fuck another one of those things. But OK. That one kind of I see how that works. Like we understand it. Right I understand. I can see it. So. Second time is easier I was just in Lotch in Poland with the L and like. They put in a wonorf (?) with cars can still drive down the street but they have to do like a slalom but there's people walking into the rad bikes and everything. And that first one was a battle and now they're doing three more. Like now everybody is going „oh, another one of those streets. Ok I've driven down that street.” I mean I get it now. So he's gonna to do one big thing and then everything else is easy.
00:42:27: 46:48] Did they tell you that the CDU the right wing party here has proposed to make the vainglorious task to have one. One Direction street.
00:42:27: 47:03] One way street. No. That would help. But like. Why not force the change that you need here. Like you know it still. It would reduce the number of cars sure but you know it would create more space for bike lanes. One lane of cars not more than that. I mean so you'd get more room. Sure. But like Man that street. Get people sitting there at an outdoor cafe with a traffic jam 2 meters away like you know. Is that a healthy life. Breathing fossil fuels.
00:42:27: 47:35] This is city life only at City Life.
00:42:27: 47:39] Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Like you know. I mean everybody's doing well. Well just um how.
00:42:27: 47:56] [00:47:56]How can can one bring a mayor to be one to enlighten them. Will it help when she visits Copenhagen. [12.2s]
00:42:27: 48:10] [00:48:10]Yeah. I mean there's almost there's almost data to support it right. [2.2s] There was an organ. There is an organization in the states who had a lot of funding so they could select six cities small and large and bring them on study trips to Amsterdam Copenhagen and then send them home and going: Do that. Do whatever you saw do that at home and the cities that are doing the most. It's almost measurable that you know all Cincinnati or Akron, Ohio. While they're doing what the Akron sent politicians, planners and engineers and you can almost see you know you can basically see the data. So yeah we are saying we meaning when I was working at the company last year. Oh we had a delegation from Parma. We had a delegation from Bordeaux including the lord mayor a very famous politician in France Michel Jupé. He came and he said I'm coming like he's a Bordeaux is doing amazing stuff too right. Yeah you can see it man because you can talk all day long.
00:42:27: 49:12] [00:49:12]And I also said to the mayor I said Don't send politicians [3.3s] because they're gonna go. Interesting. Very interesting. Where are we going to eat tonight. Let's drink some wine and they'll go back and they'll sit together in their room say now is a cool trip. Totally cool. And then nothing happens. [00:49:23]You've got to send your planners your engineers your politicians and the local activists against and all these people who never sit in the same room together and then they're forced to sit together and learn the same thing for two days when they get home. [13.1s] What I know from experience from saying the conversation changed. You know you're in the canteen at the at the office you know it or you bump into the politician in the hallway and you're the planner going hey hey you know thanks for the last. Great yeah. Wow cool. And then at the next meeting where people are sitting, [00:49:51]„oh, bikes yeah. I mean that was in. We were in Copenhagen together and you know it just changes the conversation inside a very boring you know work structure where all the engineers talk to engineers except for some meetings with those stupid planners are coming in and whatever and all of a sudden you create a different dynamic and that's what I have seen change things in a city. [21.4s] That's where the cities go home and go Yeah I get it now.
00:42:27: 50:16] OK I can watch Copenhagen on YouTube but man I got like a seven year old kid. There's one American guy told me is like you've got five and six year old kids writing better than American adults and straight as arrows and they're passing you and the mother's passing you with grocery on her handlebars and you're going I can ride a bike I'm so awesome I'm riding a bike. Oh my God I'm getting passed by. You know mothers with children. OK. And why are they doing this. Because they feel safe. Right. You know so. Oh it's just it just opens your mind you know.
00:42:27: 50:46] [00:50:46]There's a great film you know street films down the streetfilms.org. He's done like almost a thousand films from all over the world about urbanism but this one film he did in 2010 and the velocity in Copenhagen. [14.5s] He he only interviewed North Americans. He didn't he didn't sort of talk to the Europeans going all Europe. So awesome Copenhagen so awesome he only talked to the planners and politicians from around North America. What do you think about Copenhagen and they're all gone Oh I get it now one of those. I get it. And one of them was a guy who's had five and six year old kid. Like what. I get it. Everything in the whole conversation the narrative in America changed because of that film. Like all of a sudden it was like that's our people saying it's awesome. It's not us you know arogant Europeans thinking they're better than us which we are. But yeah but you know and that man. So that's another example of once you see it at once you know we can relate to them. People like you. That's it. Yeah. I mean you just you just see how it works right.
00:42:27: 51:44] I can like you know drink this Riesling and I'm sure it's nice but I mean you know if I could go and see how they make it and talk to the man and you know visit to the Vineyard I mean I don't do that. I just drink the fucking wine right. I mean like you only you get a greater understanding of anything if you actually see it work in you know. It live in upfront and personal right.
00:52:07: So man she was. I've heard a lot of mayors say this. Okay cool we're going to go. But she didn't actually say it to me. She looked to her assistant she's going: Copenhagen, get his details she went over there to another guy and said we're going to Copenhagen to her chief planner. So that might happen. So let's let's hope because I said to where [00:52:26]she's going oh Detroit is our inspiration I'm going a million people left Detroit in the past 20 years there is nothing there. There are six lane streets with four cars an hour like you can't compare yourself to fucking Detroit man. [11.5s] Copenhagen. And she says How old is Copenhagen goodness 1500 years 1500. She's going, huh, she didn't know about Copenhagen I'm not disrespecting her I'm just saying oh wow. You know I know about cologne the Romans and the [00:52:51]shit. Okay I'm going it's the same it's a medieval city centre with 20th century infrastructure. Well the Roman roads but which are now 20th century that's Copenhagen. It's like we're about the same size. We're like 650000 two million in the metro area. And she went to wow I said that's your inspiration. It's a city that does it well and it looks like your city and copy paste that shit. [20.6s]